The Financial Samurai Podcast - Making Money As A Doctor Today, Burning Out, And Pursuing Entrepreneurship With Daniel Shin, MD

Primer: What is life like as a urologist? What made Dr Daniel Shin shift towards real estate and entrepreneurship? Let’s hear from his experience in this episode of the Financial Samurai podcast.

Starting A Personal Finance Blog

• Jim Dahle is the founder of the White Coat Investor blog. His blog became the progenitor of a lot of physician personal finance blogs

• Daniel wanted to copy that model

• After a few years, he felt very secure in being a surgeon

• Was thinking about his life and what outlets he could channel his energy into

• Started his blog as a creative outlet

• His blog became a vehicle to express his financial independence goals

The Stressful Job Of Being A Surgeon

• Was in urologic surgery

• Was working 50-60 hours a week

• Had to drive 2.5 hours to work every day

• A lot of physicians are experiencing burnt out earlier than they expected to

Life As A Medical School Student And A Physician

• There’s an arrival fallacy: A lot of people work towards a goal and they expect that once they have achieved that goal, their life is going to be incredible

• People are adaptable, once they have reached a goal, they search for the next thing

Deciding To Become A Doctor

• When he was growing up, there were a few professions that seemed to be an option for him

• Did not have a good understanding of what people did in finance

• Sort of understood what doctors did

• When he started college, he had the goal of becoming a physician

His Route To Becoming A Doctor

• Studied Philosophy at Yale

• Did a year at Penn, finishing his med requirements

• Went to the University of Pittsburgh for medical school

• Did 6 years of urology residency at USC in LA

Did His Parents Directed Him Or Was It Self-Motivated?

• It was both

• His family struggled financially during his childhood

• In the 80s, his father was working in real estate and there was a recession. It was so bad that his mother was worried about buying food for dinner

“I could tell that one ticket to financial stability was to go to a good college and get a good job. So that did motivate me.”

- Daniel Shin

• Have to give his parents credit for convincing him to live up to his potential

The Percentage Split Between Genetics And Work Ethics

• There are many factors involved in getting into college

• Even though his family struggled with money, they invested in his education early on

“So when we were choosing between buying new shoes and getting Kumon, like Math lessons, my mom and my dad would choose, you know, lessons and like all these things that they felt were going to be important in, you know, getting ahead.”

- Daniel Shin

• In his 30s and 40s, he realised that pure intelligence can only get you so far in life

• The successful people that he admired did not go to the best colleges. They have other skills that are even more useful:

  • Relating to people

  • Motivating people

  • Communicating with people

• If he had to choose the percentage split, he would go 50/50

Will His Children Go To Yale?

• Would love for them to go to Yale

• When he went to Yale, he was surrounded by people who were incredibly accomplished and better than him in a lot of ways

• In high school, he focused too much on academics, and stunted his social growth

• When he went to college, he got better at socializing

Would He Want His Children To Go Down The Same Path?

• Is still incredibly grateful for the medical path he took

• Is still spending 1/3 of his time in medicine

• The rest of his time, he spends on business like real estate, blogs, and content creation

• He would not recommend his children to go into medicine because the 6 years of training was torture

• These days, most physicians are experiencing burnout and have less control over their lives

• Would recommend his children to do something where they have complete control over their schedules, such as entrepreneurship and business

• He shifted towards investing in real estate as it grants him autonomy

How Much He Made As A Doctor

• Residents can make anywhere from $45,000 to $70,000 a year

• Residents work around 80 hours a week, depending on their specialty

• Urology is one of the better-paid surgical specialties

• After a few years, you can make between $400,000 to $600,000 a year

• As you gain experience, you generally earn more

• Employed physicians generally have a hard cap on their salary

• In private practice, it’s a hybrid between a doctor and a businessman — they have ancillary income sources such as a lab, surgical centre, etc. to reach higher income levels

Was It Safe To Operate?

• They had a rule in residency that if you are safe to drive, you are safe to operate

• Actually crashed once in residency, and had hundreds of close calls

• People say that residents should take a nap before they head home, but after spending 36 hours, the first thing they would want to do is to leave the hospital

• When he was on call, it was so busy that he was awake the entire time

Can You Make Money As A Consultant Doctor?

• It depends on your specialty

• If you are doing orthopaedic surgery, you need to spend all your time in the operating room because that’s where you make money

• Urologic surgeons make the most money in the clinic — doing diagnostic scopes, quick procedures, etc.

Deciding To Specialize In Urology

• Had an epiphany when a urologist came to give them a lecture while he was in his second year

• The urologist showed a video of laser lithotripsy, which is a way to treat kidney stones

• An optic fibre is used to deliver laser energy to break kidney stones. It looked like a video game and it seemed fun. He thought he could be very good at it

• Learned that urology is not only about kidney stones but about curing kidney/bladder cancer, helping people urinate better, etc.

• People do not understand how good they have it until they cannot pee normally

Age Of His Patients

• The majority are 60-70 year old males

• You cannot do much about getting a large prostate because it’s genetic

• To prevent kidney stones, drink plenty of water and stay hydrated

• If someone has a predisposition to kidney stones, they should be drinking 2-3 litres of water a day

• Lifestyle modification is always the first step. If it goes beyond, there are medications called alpha-blockers

Declining Insurance Reimbursement Hurting Income 

• Yes, it hurts the income-generating power of doctors

• Medicine and healthcare in the US is messed up

• Think that it is due to the for-profit insurance companies that control the healthcare system in the US. Anyone who wants to change it gets drowned out by the millions of dollars lobbying

• A single-payer system or Medicare for all would be better as the baseline level of medical care would go up

Dr. Glaucomflecken’s TikTok

• One of his favourite doctors he follows on TikTok

• Dr. Glaucomflecken is an ophthalmologist who produces funny skits by acting out all the characters

• He’s grown in fame by criticizing for-profit health insurance

• There’s a growing discontent among citizens against the pharmaceutical-insurance complex

• He does not know how doctors will end up, so he is hedging his bets by diversifying his income sources and investments

His Unconventional Move To Memphis, Tennessee

• Was due to several reasons:

  • Had a much better commute

  • Had a large and growing business of real estate that he needed to manage on the weekends

  • Writing in his blog and creating short-form video content

• His wife was in the museum field and was recruited to lead the museum in Memphis

• His family took the leap to move

• It was challenging but they are much happier

• His wife made an equivalent pay while he lost half a million dollars because he was not working for 5 months as he was working on his medical license

• When he spoke to traditional practices, they were not cool with the autonomy and freedom that he wanted

• Is currently doing Locum Tenens medicine, where he comes into the hospital and helps when someone else quits, retires, or gets disabled

• It is efficient in terms of time and income and he gets complete control over his schedule

The City Culture In Memphis

• It’s a majority black city with 2-3% Asians

• His children go to a Korean school

• There are more schooling options in Memphis

• The city has a bad rap because of crime

• However, there’s an incredibly passionate philanthropic community that is investing in the city

Is He Afraid That His Children Will Grow Up Soft?

• It’s a double-edged sword

• You want to do well to provide for your children, but a lot of experiences that have shaped him came from the challenges he faced while growing up

• There is a risk that if you provide too much, you could make your children softer. However, this does not mean that you do not provide them with a good education

• Have to think of challenging situations and programs for your children

What Is Financial Independence To Him?

• Back then, he projected that he would need $6.5-7 million of investments, with a 4% rule to provide for everything they needed

• Now, he realised that the fastest way to financial independence is through residential real estate as the return in cash and rent payments could be used to offset your living cost. Hence, you do not need to abide by the 4% rule anymore

• Over the last 4-5 years, he has increasingly shifted their investments to real estate

• It has cut down the time needed for financial independence for them

• As a travelling urologist, he still makes $400,000 a year working 7-10 days a month, with 10-hour workdays

How Long Will He Be Doing This Hybrid Arrangement?

• Over the next year, he wants to get to a point where it is the status quo and he is happy in all aspects

• Trying to scale up in multifamily real estate, which takes a lot of investment in terms of making contacts and finding investors

Advice For Listeners

• Everyone should aim towards financial independence as it is a worthy goal

• Everyone should actively move toward their goals, because we have only one life

• If you notice something in your life that is not to your liking, start changing your circumstances

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