Zima Red ep 106: Bernadine Bröcker Wieder - On The Forefront of Art & Tech
Primer: What is the traditional art world like? How do you value the different types of art? Bernadine Bröcker Wieder shares her experience working at Christie’s and her subsequent founding of Vastari, a firm that connects museums, exhibition producers, venues, collectors and suppliers for more efficient exhibitions.
Background
CEO of Vastari
Has an art background
Trained at Christie’s to value things from paintings to silver
Helped set up an impressionist and modern gallery in London
In 2012, she set up her own business. They created a database of private collections that was accessible to museums for loans
In 2016, they launched a second database of whole exhibitions
In 2019, they facilitated about $2 billion worth of content going from one owner to a venue
During the pandemic, everything stopped. However, interest for digital content and experiences grew
Her Experience At Christie’s
Different valuation framework for each type of goods
For silver, there’s different hallmarks indicating the date and geography it is from
Silversmiths have guilds that got together and set standards
For furniture, you have to look at the stylistic elements
Can also use materials like whether that pigment or style existed during that time
If it’s a good example, you can attribute value to that particular example
Her Business
When private collectors lend to a museum, there’s value changing hands
It adds to the exhibition history of the piece, increasing its value
Museums say they curate pieces neutrally
In practice, it’s difficult to get in touch with private collectors. Hence, museums often focus on works that are in other museums or well known collections
Their Exhibitions
Most popular exhibition in 2019: DC Comics
Examples: Dinosaurs, Lego, virtual reality, typical art stuff, etc.
An exhibition is seen as intellectual property. If it gets booked at a new venue, the new venue will pay a hiring fee for that exhibit
What She Did In 2020
Have always been interested in distributed ledger technology (DLT) since 2015
Even did some prototypes with Everledger about how blockchain could be relevant to the art world
The difficult thing was to get DLT into the art sector as most of them did not see much value in the digital world
In 2018, they organized a conference at Christie’s called the Art + Tech Summit. The conference explored blockchain and brought together the thought leaders of the space
In 2020, museums were closed. Was looking at ways to help them
Simultaneously, there was a huge growth in Web3 and NFTs and museums were approaching them regarding NFTs
“People now understand the power of radical transparency of using these public ledgers and being able to store data in this way.”
- Bernadine Bröcker Wieder
Was She Initially More Interested In Crypto Or Blockchain Technology?
Liked Bitcoin as a concept
Was more into the potential of using DLT in other applications
Vastari
Introduction
Real world partner for projects in Web3
People trust them to determine whether something is legitimate
Named after Giorgio Vasari, the first art historian
Giorgio Vasari wrote it in a gossipy way, helping people to remember these artists
Created Vastari Labs in 2021 to capture the context of the NFT boom
One-Liner For Vastari
We are the matchmaker between content owners, venues, exhibition producers and technologists to create exciting projects
High Level View Of What They Do
Working with traditional institutions like museums, galleries, collectors, VR producers
Match them with people in Web3 for the type of project they are trying to do
Why Would Museums Want To Get Into NFTs?
They want to get involved but are also skeptical
Most museums abide by a code of ethics (e.g. how to preserve the objects, educating people about them, etc.), which is not necessarily aligned with the crypto space
What Type Of Work Have They Done?
Launched the Ancient of Days NFT in 2021 at Whitworth, Manchester
The Ancient of Days by William Blake is one of the most important pieces in the museum's collection
Minted 50 NFTs on Tezos. They selected a proof-of-stake chain to reduce their environmental footprint
The proceeds of the NFTs will be used to fund social projects for the Whitworth community
“So it's kind of this like revolutionary idea about the wealth of the collections going to the people of Manchester.”
- Bernadine Bröcker Wieder
The owners of the NFTs will be tracked over the next 2 years
What happens to them will be shown in an exhibition in 2023 called Economics the Blockbuster
They wanted everything to be on-chain, to make things more transparent
Do They Help These Entities With Everything?
Yes — from finding the right partners, conceptualization, marketing, and launch
Giving Away Tokens
In 2018, they gave away 300 NFTs at the conference at Christie’s
SuperRare, Jason, and Robbie Barrat created the NFTs
Most of the 300 NFTs have been lost. People did not realize that those paper wallets were valuable
Only ~30 have been recovered
They started selling for $15,000 last year. Currently, they are selling for over a million
What Drives The Value Of A Piece Of Art?
Important to look at the art itself. It can move you to find out more about it
There’s a community that really cares for the art
Need to have patronage — people paying for the art and growing its value
Is It The Artist’s Reputation That Drives Value?
May not be the case. There’s plenty of big brand artists that produce work that doesn’t sell for much
There’s also one-hit wonders
Brands have a consistency of style that people recognize. They also have people who tell stories about the artist
The Narrative Behind The Artwork
Art needs to stop someone in their tracks
Took one of Robbie’s pieces called Peeping Skull — it’s a box with a hole in it. When you look in, you will see a skull created by AI. The computer will destroy the image after 20 seconds
“People were looking inside that box and feeling so conflicted about the fact that they're looking at something beautiful, something really moving, but also they can't hold on to it. It's like fleeting, and it's going to disappear. And actually skulls, if you look throughout history, skulls have been the memento mori. They're the things that kind of remind you that we all die, and everything is fleeting, and everything is gone.”
- Bernadine Bröcker Wieder
Biggest Differences Between The Traditional Art World And The NFT Art World
Started off completely different
Now they are starting to look similar
Many ways to look at it:
A part of the NFT art world that is exactly like the traditional art world
A grassroots NFT world that enables digital artists to make a living
Do Artists In The NFT Space Have To Become Their Own Marketers?
Damien Hirst is one of the best marketers
There are some artists that do well because they are good marketers
Artists can now have direct contact with their collectors
There’s a new breed of galleries that’s helping artists to market their work
Are NFT Artists Becoming Quasi-Influencers?
A little bit
The Historical Significance Of This Period
Digital art is the continuation of a story from the 60s
Will have a lot that will happen that will impact the way that people look at this time period
Will The NFT Art Market Eat Into The Physical Art Market?
The buyers do not have much overlap yet
Growth of NFT sales could be attributed to people who are excited about owning an NFT
Have not seen the trend of traditional art collectors starting to buy NFTs yet
How Does She See The NFT Market Evolving?
Some NFTs act like securities. Will have difficulty explaining which NFTs are collectibles and which are securities when regulations arrive
We have little clarity as to how NFTs interact with copyright. Will have new business models developing around it
Would love to see users buying an NFT from a museum and the museum keeping in touch with the buyer through the NFT
What New Business Models Can The NFT Art World Adopt And Utilize?
Tokens are ingredients to something bigger
Thinking of remixes where a new thing is created from the multiple NFTs that someone have in their wallet
Is involved with an organization called the Art Identification Standard, where they are trying to use DLT and decentralized identifiers (DIDs) to create new business models to verify whether a given artwork is real
In the shorter-term, there are collaboration contracts — people who contribute to something can be remunerated for it
Grand 5-10 Year Vision
More meaningful museum NFT projects to come about
Their role is to make a lot of stories come to life
Single Favourite NFT
Her lost Robbie
Really like Robbie’s work
Most Controversial Thought On NFTs
Cultural institutions are not sitting on a goldmine of JPEGs
Dislikes seeing someone with an IP making a cash grab
How Does She Direct People Who Come To Her With IPs And Want To Make A Killing With NFTs?
Get them to define the relationship between the manifestation of the IP and the NFT they are wanting to create
Have to go through a process of understanding how the NFT relates to the existing IP:
Is this a copy?
Is this a link to the IP?
What are they trying to do with the NFT?
If it’s a share in the work, what does that mean?
Can it be personalized?
Do you get access?
What utility does it have?
If She Could Improve Something In The Space
Reducing carbon footprint while still keeping it democratic
Is Digital Art More Environmentally Friendly?
Doesn’t really agree or disagree
In her industry, there’s lots of inefficient practices
Proof-of-work adds to the carbon footprint
Who Does She Look Up To And Why?
Yuval Noah Harari, the author of Sapiens
It changes the way we think about what truths we maintain as self-evident and how they are not necessarily self-evident
NFT Ecosystem In 3 Years
It will become a part of our day to day lives that we don’t use the term NFT anymore
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